Where Global Families Are Educating Their Kids Now

Tess Wilkinson0:00If they went to UC Berkeley or UCLA, as an international student, you'd be looking about $250,000 for the four years. If they're in state, I think it's about 48 for the four years. So it's a huge difference, but it's a very different profile of family because the majority of our clients, you know, for the family are not looking to move, especially not for university. You know, they tend to send a child and they come back. For some profiles of family, this is exactly right. That's the only way that they can get advantageous feed. That's why it's so interesting.

Own the World0:32Welcome to Own the World Podcast with Abhii Dabas. Powered by INTRIC Global.

Abhii Dabas0:56Expansion, a subsidiary, a holding structure. Sit with it a little longer, and you almost always arrive at the same place, which is the children. Where they study, where they can work afterwards, and what happens to all of it in 20 years. For a long time, that question had a short list of answers, a degree in the US or the UK, and the rest followed. That list is getting longer. Families are looking at Canada, in Australia, at Portugal, in the UAE, Singapore, and they are increasingly making the education decision and the residency decision together rather than a decade apart. Some of that is being pushed along by policy, of course. The US tightened its student visa rules this summer, and a few European routes have narrowed.

1:37Most of it is families deciding for themselves that one country is a thinner position than it used to be. Welcome to Own the World, the show for investors who refuse to be limited by geography. I am Abhii Dabas. My guest today is Tess Wilkinson, Director of Education Services at Henley and Partners, based in Portugal. What a wonderful country. Tess has over 25 years experience in international education and heads the education team at Henley and Partners. She works with families on school and university placement across many countries, and she sees the exact point where an education decision stops being an education decision and becomes a capital decision. I'm also later joined by our old friend Yudhi Mapara from the residency side of things.

2:21And I'm looking forward to continuing that conversation to look at where the whole market is heading. Tess, welcome to Own the World.

Tess Wilkinson2:28Thank you very much, Abhii.

Abhii Dabas2:29Firstly, I must say Portugal, what a lovely place to be. So you are living the dream. So when we talk about residency, you know, the fact is you yourself are walking the talk. So you want to talk a bit about how you ended up in Portugal?

Tess Wilkinson2:44Well, yeah, Portugal has been a place that we've adored for years. And, you know, I think the plan was always at some point to leave the UK and, you know, go and sort of have have another part of a later part of our life elsewhere. And of course, because we're I'm British and we're no longer part of the EU, I've had to go through a whole visa process to be able to live here now. So yeah, I mean, what it's I always love it when I speak to parents who are going, oh, we're thinking about Portugal. So I always tell them how wonderful it is to live here. And it is, it's absolutely beautiful. I'm looking out at the sea as I talk to you.

3:19So there are worse places to be.

Abhii Dabas3:21Of course, yeah. And and and you know, it's always so wonderful speaking to people who've actually done it, right? So so a lot of people talk about residency, but they haven't lived in many places. And here you are living in Portugal, which was till very recently one of those popular destinations globally for people to move, still happens to be, but not so much from a property angle. But talking about families and you know, why people move, when people, you know, come and meet you and they talk about their children's education, what do you think is the sort of primary driver of that conversation? Is it more opportunities overseas or is it uh something, you know, they want to set their kids for life in a completely different country?

4:00What's what's driving that conversation?

Tess Wilkinson4:02I would it it it sort of depends on the age of the children, I would say. To be honest, the majority are very much talking about education. They want to be able to give their children the best possible education they can, which can, you know, which can according to where they actually live currently, they may see better opportunities abroad, but they may also just be wanting to give them a really international overview and and experience. And I'd say, you know, if so I was talking about ages. So for parents who've got school-aged children, for them the education absolutely is critical. I'd say for university and and it comes first, usually. And then for university applicants, it it's a bit of both, because then because of the age they are.

4:45Parents are talking to us, as are the students at that age, you know, about well, what's what's next? What comes after my degree? Do I, how do I maximize the opportunity in the education I've had? And so I'd say for that sort of age group, we've got both education optionality that's considered. And whatever their drivers, I always talk to families about planning. And it's absolutely key that we have conversations with families when the children are young. We work with children from kindergarten age all the way up to postgrad. So we've recently just started working with a family who have an 18-month-old child. And they've come to us because they want to live in Switzerland and they are aware that they know nothing about the school system there, and they want guidance to get that child into a wonderful kindergarten, international kindergarten.

5:38But we'll be talking to them not only about that in that age group, but it's the education pathway that we plan with them. I know that's a very, very, very small child and by far the youngest we've worked with, or four. But you know, it's it's all about that. And then of course, around the education pathway, if they're relocating, they're obviously considering tax. That is right up there. But they're looking at a mixture of the lifestyle that they can access, the optionality for their children, with the schools, it's what sort of networks are their children going to be able to access for future working opportunities and connections and all the rest of it. So it's, I would say though, fundamentally, children come to us or families come to us for our expertise, guidance, our impartiality.

6:24And of course, because we work closely with Uni and the team, we're able to deliver this very interesting combination of residency and education and everything that goes with it. So the key thing to answer your question tends to be education, but there are lots of conversations going on at the same time because it isn't just that that's driving the family.

Abhii Dabas6:46Absolutely. I'm I'm still recovering from the 18-month-old line. I don't think I or my family had any clue about what I was gonna do uh till I was in my mid-20s. And so, so to hear somebody planning a cross-border life for an 18-month-old is is is actually inspiring, I must say. I mean, as long as there's not enough pressure on the poor little 18-month-old. But I think that's that just goes to show how much planning it takes and how important it is to work with experts. I obviously talk to people about owning the world. That's my life's philosophy. Go and live anywhere you want, study anywhere you want, start a business anywhere you want. And one of the things that I realized when I was speaking to a family recently is they wanted to give their children excellent education, Ivy League education.

7:33But one of the things that kept popping up was also safety. That's something that I'm sure you hear a lot of. And that's why sometimes we try and tell families that don't just read the headlines. The world is not as crazy as you think it is. And and there are so many opportunities in terms of, as you mentioned, optionality and succession. So sometimes we've seen families where they run a very successful business and they want to make sure that the successor is well trained and can handle that business because that or or grow that business. So that is something that's quite interesting as well. So let's say in the last five or six years, do you feel anything has changed?

8:11Everyone talks about like life before COVID and life after COVID, or let's say even the last five or six years. Have you seen any change in these patterns in terms of what families are deciding and why they are deciding these things?

Tess Wilkinson8:25You're quite right, is that we always need to take a huge pinch of salt with everything we read and hear. Because if we did, we wouldn't move anywhere or do anything. And I think what has fundamentally changed, I'm sure you can add to this as well, is that there's as you say, pre-COVID, things were quite different, I think. And education, people were obviously very international in what they were looking for, but there was a clear sort of the top four, the the the main four destinations for university were still very much UK, US, Canada, Australia, and they were emerging, Europe was coming up, etc., but Asia not so much, but it was really that top four.

9:06And then I think that COVID changed things, certainly from a residency perspective, and Yudhi could talk to that, but for us it's just been an awareness that all of a sudden, having been confined to their countries of citizenship, families were suddenly going, actually, we want to be able to have optionality of where we go, where we live, and how we study. And students have become more adventurous, they're looking further afield. Some destinations have been, there have been consequences of changes in politics that have meant that many of the countries have become far more I wouldn't say maybe less welcoming, less easy than had historically been. And that's driven students and families to look elsewhere. And what's easier, where can we get a student visa without having to jump through so many hoops and may even fail, even though we've got a place at, let's say, MIT, which was absolutely what happened to an Indian family, a student I spoke to last year, and he'd got into, I think it was MIT or Harvard, one of the two, and he had didn't get his visa, and so he couldn't go.

10:13And so Plan B had to happen. So so there are things like that that really made people think twice. The safety element of it, it's interesting. You know, there are families who with girls, and this sound, you know, not that they need necessarily more care than boys, but families tend to be far more protective about their daughters. And we've often heard people saying, Yes, our son can go to the States, but I want our daughter in Europe or something like that. So so there is there is that conversation that can take place, but then again, it's also our duty of care to understand the family's wishes, their drivers, and for us to guide if safety is right at the top of their list, and then the quality of education, then we're going to look at areas where we know there's fantastic care.

10:58There's a really, really Portugal's a great example. So so there are various conversations to be had. The other thing that I think is quite interesting is the rise in the number of students who are going to boarding school. Because previously it was a very UK thing and Switzerland thing. Very, very few nationalities feel that boarding is an option that they would even consider. But due to this planning, due to looking at, okay, so we do want to look at succession, we do want to get our children into the right universities where they can learn what either we as a family need or what they as children want to study, then how do we get there?

11:39And again, it's all about this pathway. What's the best route? And so we've seen a rise in boarding. And interestingly, in the first two quarters of this year, 90% of our clients were US residents who were relocating to Europe, relocating with school-aged children. And the majority were going to Switzerland and they were wanting the top boarding schools like Aiglon, La Rosé, uh, Rosenberg, etc. And they see that as an investment because they're probably some of the most expensive schools in the world. They see it as an investment for international education, for network, for optionality, because they can potentially look at residency in Switzerland. Then they plan for the next step, let's say the US, UK, wherever they may go.

12:23And then they're looking at, well, is there a way of securing optionality post-grad there? So it's a long-term conversation, and that we are definitely seeing as something that's changed since five, six years ago. Judy, I'm sure you've got you've seen something around this too, haven't you? I know you talked to me about it.

Yudhi Mapara12:41Yes, absolutely. And that is that is true. So what you said about how parents treat their children differently, their sons and their daughters, that is very true. And uh we are finding that nowadays they're not that focused on sending both kids to the one university, also the one country. So I've got a family. I mean, Tess, you know them, you're working with them closely. The son is keen on studying in the US, but the d uh the daughter is is very design-oriented. She has that focus. She wants to do fashion design, and they're uh looking at uh a schooling in Italy for her. So, yes, most definitely that is the case. And we've noticed that a lot nowadays where they're not as stuck on just the one destination for both.

13:25And it's really about which country, which university offers them the best pathway or the best education rather than having everyone in the one place.

Abhii Dabas13:32Yeah, fascinating. I mean, I was speaking to a friend yesterday, and they are planning to move to Italy as well, but for very different reasons for the lump some taxation reasons. But there are so many options out there, and and that's what makes the world so exciting. So test the US, the UK, Canada, Australia, these have been the big four. Do you see any trends within these markets that's changing in terms of education? There are a lot of headlines about, you know, fewer student visas, people talk about, you know, equally, I think these governments have had to do a balancing act. I think education is one of the largest exports for the Australian government. I think third largest, if I'm not wrong, I could be.

14:14So what's changing? Uh and for a family who's planning education in any of these countries, what should they be uh mindful of?

Tess Wilkinson14:22We talk about the big four. And I was doing some research and looking at some data, and the OECD data is really quite striking because the US, UK, Canada, and Australia together still receive 46% of all internationally mobile students in OCD and partner countries. 46%. So that's almost half. However, in 2024, they accounted for 65% of new international student inflows. So they are dominant, but things are changing. And the, I don't know if you've heard, it's one of the sort of online specialist news that I read all the time, ICEF Monitor. They described in that 2025 was really a turning point with the market moving from the Big Four to a much broader group of destinations, which you you may have seen or may see, are sometimes referred to as the Big 14.

15:18So these now include countries like Italy, France, Germany, and Spain, but also Nordic countries, Scandinavian countries, and Southeast Asian countries. So, you know, it's it's moving considerably. And if you're talking about what to think about the US, there is a challenge in the visas, without a doubt. And we've all read it, we've seen it. It's harder to get them. There are refusals. There are students who don't want to go through the social media investigation and all the rest of it, that that is now that the US is now asking for. And so there's definitely been a decline in, I don't know if you've heard of Keystone Education Group. It's a big group, and they do a lot of research too.

15:59They were saying that enrollments to the US were down 47% in 2023, and that by the end of 2025 there was a bit more stability with the OPT applicant still attracting people and thinking it was worth doing. OPT, for those who don't know, is optional practical training. And it's one of the biggest draws of the US. It's basically what it means is that a student can apply for an OPT work authorization, which lasts for about 12 months. If they're doing STEM subjects of science, engineering, math, etc., they can get up to 24 months of a temporary work authorization. So this has been a traditionally a massive draw for the US because it allows students to stay and potentially work and then develop, you know, use their knowledge and their learning to develop their careers.

16:52However, recently, I think it was last week or the week before last, there was sort of noise coming out of the Trump administration that they were going to put a $100,000 fee on the OPT. Now, if that happens, I think there'll be a vast drop, a very, very big drop in the numbers because it's really one of the biggest attractions. I think it's something like they're predicting maybe 65 to 70% drop in applications if that OPT fee goes ahead. So it would be a disaster for the universities over there and for everything else, because international students bring knowledge and companies want knowledge and skill sets. Then you've got the UK. The UK is right at the top of the education data points and the Henley Opportunity Index, and it is the strongest across the board.

17:42So the UK remains attractive, but again, it is quite possible that if the government introduces a shorter post-study work entitlement, it will also impact interest. But we don't really know yet. Canada and Australia have seen drops too, again because of visas. It's all to do with visas usually. But Australia is starting to sort of progress again, and we seem more interested in it. Canada, frankly, for us, we have almost no requests for. It seems to have sort of dropped away. Then it's a combination of are people talking about programs that are linked to education destinations. The US, clearly, you've got the EB5. And when we have conversations with families now, the EB5 is always talked about because they understand that actually by having a green card before you apply, if the child is young enough, they're not an international student.

18:35They don't have to jump through the hoops of international student visas, and they can access option at careers, internships, and all the rest of it. The UK doesn't have a program, but people are still interested in it. There are ways of doing a things, but it's way more complicated. So the UK is not chosen for student families who are looking to combine education with residency or citizenship. Australia has a talent program, and Yudhi, you can probably say more. And Canada has recently, or not so recently now, shut down the Canada SUV, if I'm not mistaken, and they have another investor program in place. So there are connections. But as you mentioned, I mean and I was saying earlier, Italy lumped some taxation, Switzerland lumped some taxation, the Spain Golden Visa has closed, but we've got the passive income visa now, which is another way of families who want to relocate to access residency and citizenship.

19:32And etc. etc. etc. So sometimes it's driven by just purely education, sometimes it's driven by both. But it is definitely changing.

Abhii Dabas19:41Right. That's really fascinating, uh, Tess. The three things I've learned is start early, as early as 18 months, because planning is key. The second thing that's uh made me really excited is the big 14 that you mentioned. I always think of the world as a place full of opportunities. So I think whatever policies are being rolled out by a certain number of countries always presents newer opportunities for the other countries. I think all of us need to learn a lot more about the big 14. And then the third thing, as you mentioned, which we'll talk about a bit later as well, is visas. So you can decide on the best educational destination. But if you don't get visas, then what do you do?

20:21And so that's where things are becoming quite tricky as well. So you did we did speak uh briefly about Australia. So you've lived in Australia for many years as well. So how would you compare the time today from when you were in Australia in terms of the openness of welcoming new students? And is there, especially let's say in Asia or say in India, are Indian families still as excited about sending their kids to Australia as they used to be?

Yudhi Mapara20:47They certainly are. So Indian families do look at Australia as one of the what as the ideal choice. But what has changed is a lot to do with what Tess has said. So now it's not just about the best education, it's about how many hoops does the family have to go through to secure permanent residency. A program like the EB5 is fairly straightforward. All that's needed is an investment. So a lot of families can do that. Programs like Canada, which Tess mentioned, the SUV, the start-up visa program ended at the end of last year, and now that's been replaced by a provincial program. So the provincial program is not as straightforward as just making an investment into Canada and getting permanent residency.

21:27The family actually need to establish a business there, and they need to sort of jump through a few more hoops to get residency. They need to show an actual connection to Canada. So these factors do come into play a lot. Australia does have a program called the NIV, the National Innovation Visa. Again, that is not as simple as just making a business investment either. It is about proving that you are at the top of your field, you've got a tech background. So again, Australian Visa is popular with people that have that very senior level tech background. Whereas the US IB is a lot more straightforward. You make the investment as long as you qualify and as long as the regional center that you invest in does what it's meant to do, your your your green card is pretty much guaranteed.

22:11So the US, from our point of view, still sits at the top when it's a family that's considering that um the the the education and the residency.

Abhii Dabas22:20So interesting. Uh the fact that despite all the visa challenges and everything, the the US obviously continues to be so popular. And then you spoke about the EB5, and I know there's a bit of a looming deadline there as well. So maybe Tess, you can uh walk us through what their deadline is and what what do families need to do if they still want to take advantage of the EB5 option, especially if they are taking the education route.

Tess Wilkinson22:44Yes, I think to be honest, I think Yudhi is probably best suited to talk about what they need to do. But for us, the conversations we have now, it's the deadline is the 30th of September. So people who are considering it, they need to do it immediately. And UDI, you can probably talk more about the actual what they need to do, and then I can maybe talk more about the education part of it.

Yudhi Mapara23:09So the EB5, the program itself is authorized for another year. But where September 30th, 2026, why that date is critical is because that is the last date to secure grandfathering protection under the current legislation. So if there are any changes that that do come in, anyone that has applied prior to September 30, they are grandfathered in the current legislation. Hence that that is probably the most critical date right now. And hence we're seeing a a huge rush when it comes to EB5 applicants.

Abhii Dabas23:40So you mean to say anyone who applies after September 30th, then the new rules may apply and they would no longer be able to avail all the rules that applied before September 30th, right? Is is that Yes, exactly.

Yudhi Mapara23:55So to give you an example, there is another another important date, which is the 1st of Jan 2027. The program allows for certain increases every five years. And there is a likelihood that the cost of the EB5, which is currently 800,000 for the regional center program, could increase. If you if your application has been completed prior to September 30, those changes, those increases will not apply. You are protected under the grandfathering of the September 30th deadline.

Abhii Dabas24:22Right. And so if I am a family and I've been thinking about it and I was a bit on the fence and I need to now do something about it, what do I need to do?

Yudhi Mapara24:34You need to get in touch with us straight away.

Abhii Dabas24:36That's easy, right?

Yudhi Mapara24:37Exactly. We'll take it from there. We we we work a lot um with uh with EB5 centers. We do a lot of due diligence. We ensure that uh a lot of the regional centers and the projects that we recommend to our clients have all the required approvals such as the I-956, and we ensure that uh clients will enroll into a program which is which is going to be qualified for the for for the current EB5 legislation. So, yes, if you are looking at the EB5, it's probably something that you should have done yesterday, IB. But yes, get in touch with us quickly and and we'll ensure that you know you are still protected under the under that grandfathering deadline.

Abhii Dabas25:16That's fantastic, right? I wish I had advisors like that, right? Especially when it comes to all these scary processes, my procrastination kicks in because it's just a lot to handle. So it's always good to work with the specialists. So get in touch with the team at the Henley and Partners. So Tess, coming back to the education bit, so you mentioned that the applications and the student visa really dropped, the number of students really dropped in the US, but obviously some of the world's best universities. The other interesting thing that you mentioned earlier was investment, right? So when you were talking about expensive boarding schools, I wish my family had looked at me as that kind of a good investment.

25:54Probably, probably I would have disappointed. But but the fact is, if you do start early, there are some benefits in terms of the fees that you would end up paying. I believe there are some very interesting stories of how people have managed to save on some of these fees if your your if your children start early.

Tess Wilkinson26:11Yeah, absolutely. I I'll give you a good example of this. So we've just onboarded a a Chinese client based in Hong Kong who has a 10-year-old son, and her wish or the family's wish is for him to go to one of the IVs or equivalent. So she came to us for a conversation. She's already a Henley client, and she wanted to understand what sort of support we could offer her son with this goal in mind. So we're talking seven years out. Right. And having understood really what the pathway, well, what what the plan was for them, we sat down with one of our counsellors who specializes in the US and who is also a qualified coach.

26:52And we've put together a plan for that child. So we're now started coaching, probably a big word for a 10-year-old, but coaching that 10-year-old with his mother, obviously, not just on his own. And it's just helping that child to start raising questions, discovering things about the world that interests him, trying to pin down what he may think about certain things, get him to talk about those. So we have this one-year program designed for a 10 to 11 year old. Then we've got a sort of 11 to 14-year-old program as well that we use with those younger children. And again, it it's it's great because it's very agile, and our counselor tweaks it constantly because obviously a child can change hugely between the age of 10 and 14.

27:42But we still have this ultimate goal, which is to get to a top university in the US. So everything that goes on during these sort of three, four years until we can kick into a proper four-year programme for elite universities that we offer is all about helping that child become somebody as exceptional and as interesting as they can be. He has his interests. How do we shape those? You know, what sort of things should he be doing? How should he be spending his summers? What sort of, when he's old enough, work experience or internships or shadowing can they do? And it's just about constantly being a touch point with these families and with the child as they get older to guide and shape for them to then get to a point when when they put in applications, they've had seven years working up to being that exceptional person because Harvard has got a 4.6 admit rate.

28:37It's one of the most competitive in the world. MIT, even more, or about the same. So I think a couple of years ago, Harvard had something like 65,000 for 1000 applicants for 1,300 places or 400 places, something like that. So it's highly competitive. Now, with regards to planning in advance, is it just maximizes every single opportunity and that child has. But for anyone listening whose child is 15, please don't panic, because the majority of the children we work with are 15, 16-year-olds who've just gone, oh, I'd really like to go to the States. And it's like, okay, right, we've got two years or one year and a half, what can we do? So we obviously have have solutions for them too.

29:18But this is quite an exceptional case of a parent thinking this far out. With regards to the advantage in fees, that's a bit of a different. So they have if if you you can really only benefit from advantageous fees if you actually move to the States. So for families who want to relocate, then that's fine. But it's also it's not for every university. So let's say this family, when when this child is, let's say 15, they decide to move to California because it makes sense, fine. So they move to California, they're there for two to three years before that child applies to university. Now, if he applies to Harvard or MIT or any of these private universities, the fees remain the same.

30:00But as a resident or potentially a citizen, depending on how long they've lived there, he can access financial aid, he can access sponsorships that are much harder to get as international students. But the really interesting thing is if it suited that child and suited what the plan was, if they apply for one of the UCs, which are the public universities within the state, they then pay state fees. So to give you an example, if they went to UC Berkeley or UCLA as an international student, you'd be looking at about $250,000, roughly dollars for the four years. If they're in state, I think it's about 48 for the four years. So it's a huge difference, but it's a very different profile of family because the majority of our clients for the family are not looking to move, especially not for universities.

30:52They tend to send a child and they come back. But for some profiles of families, this is exactly right. So, but that's the only way that they can get advantageous fees. And then with regards to, you know, the visas, is this child, they can have, and Yudhi can certainly speak more to this, but the EB5, which we're they're going to be doing for a 10-year-old, can be done for a 10-year-old. It doesn't have to be for a major child, you know, an adult. It can be uh connected to a minor. So that child will be a resident before they apply. So all the visa stuff disappears. That's why it's so interesting.

Abhii Dabas31:26It is, it is, absolutely. And and basically what I've understood is there's a solution for everyone. So if you're a family who really likes to plan ahead and maybe even a decade in advance or like 18 years in advance, there is a solution for you. And if you just decide to go to a certain university within a year or two, then you can do that as well. So you're some kids are really gifted and they need that special care and they need a lot of planning. So I think that that works really well as well. And I'm sure one of the questions that you are being asked a lot these days is as you said, a lot can change between uh the ages of 10 and 18 is the fact where where are jobs moving?

32:03And you mentioned earlier about how uh the visa policies in terms of uh post-education, work visas, that's an important one as well. But also the fact remains that with AI, a lot of things are changing uh dramatically. So what kind of conversations are parents having with you? What what are they talking about and how are they planning their kids' careers when it comes to AI and the the streams that they are choosing?

Tess Wilkinson32:29Yeah. That's interesting because t we get asked about that when we have family or a student who says, right, they're 15. What should I study so I can get a job and be relevant in eight years' time or however long it is before they qualify? And we'll we will say, I don't know, because we don't know. We do not have an answer to how AI is going to change things and what jobs are going to be out there because they haven't been invented yet. They they will carry on changing. So what we do is focus on the skills of the child. There are certain skills we know are going to be harder to replace than others.

33:03Anything that's personable, anything that's got empathy and emotion, the human skills, they're the ones that to focus on. And those are the conversations we have with with uh families, because we're not experts on AI. We don't really know what's going to happen, and we're loath to to pretend we do. But we know, as everybody does from watching YouTube videos or reading the press or whatever, we know which are the more likely careers to be taken or or to disappear under a sort of increase of AI. But again, they may shift or they may change, or that career will be tweaked in a way that we can't yet imagine. And then a whole load of new skill sets and opportunities are going to come through that we don't we haven't seen yet.

33:47So it's a really tricky one, Abhii, and I don't have an answer to it personally, but I think skills is really important because then you have flexibility, you've got you're able to be versatile. I think that's really important going into the future to be able to adapt to whatever you're asked to do, to be able to embrace change is essential. So it's things like that that we talk about. And I think the majority of families understand that it's quite hard to predict the future, but by equipping yourself with skills that are going to be beneficial, you're doing everything you can to be able to adjust to a world that's changing so quickly.

Abhii Dabas34:27Yeah, absolutely. As you said, empathy, that's key. And the ability to change and adapt, that's gonna be very important. The world's changing faster than it ever has. And we see that in our teams as well. Young people who are able to adapt quickly, they are far more successful than the ones who are not able to. So I think that's that's gonna be the most important key. And of course, empathy and some compassion, that's always helpful. I would like to be the chief smiling officer at some point, you know, job of the future. Show up and smile and try to tell the world, you know, the glass is half full, it's not such a bad place to be.

35:02So yeah, I think uh a lot of these jobs have not emerged yet, and who knows? If you look at what the AI narrative was two years ago, it's already changed quite significantly from then. And we were talking about AGI and we were talking, well, the world would have changed completely. I don't think it's nearly as scary as uh we thought it would be. So I think we'll be all right. And if you're a 15-year-old or if you're the parent of a 15-year-old, I think there's plenty of reason to be hopeful. Since we are talking about the future, let's talk about a few countries that you see are really emerging. So if you had to both of you predict based on whatever trends you're seeing, which are the countries that you would say would grow rapidly when it comes to attracting talent and also Yudhi, from your point of view, in terms of being more lucrative for residents.

Tess Wilkinson35:53That's an interesting one because we've actually literally just taken on a counselor who's going to be covering Japan, South Korea, Thailand, Malaysia, those sort of countries, because they are definitely we have the Asian tiger that is rising absolutely without doubt. You know, it really is. And sort of from India all across to Southeast Asia, there's going to be more Asian-based students who are going to stay within Asia because there's a growing number of universities. The international schools are outstanding. You know, you've got places, you know, we have more we're beginning to get inquiries, which is why we're now being able to address them. For South Korea, we have, you know, schools in Thailand, universities in Thailand, universities we also have an India-based, India focused advisor too, because Indians don't all want to go abroad.

36:46Some do, or some want to go abroad for part of their studies and come back and study uh either a master's or do the undergrad there and then go abroad. But we have somebody who can do Indian schools and universities as well. So it's a very interesting change. I think there's still a step for, let's say, American students to start studying in South Korea and Japan. They are still or or Western students. I think there will be people who go because they're curious, they understand, they see the different strengths in different countries. But it is very much Asian students staying there for the moment. I think it's just going to be very interesting. And then the other ones are the UAE, clearly.

37:27Okay, there's been a bit of a blip over the last few months, but I think fundamentally it remains very attractive and will go on being so. And once things sort of conclude with what's going on there, I think the government over there will invest heavily to ensure that everything is back up and running and as attractive as it has been. The growth in schools out in the UAE is huge. It's very complex. Anyone moving there, and we've had several families, we really do advise them to come and talk to us about schools because there's a huge, they they change in quality and staff fairly regularly in a way others don't. So the universities there, you know, there are more and more, like in India, there are more and more satellite universities and schools setting up there.

38:09So we've got the Sorbonne has got a campus there, New York University got a campus there. We've got schools like Repton who've got campuses over there. So, you know, it's it's it's really interesting to see how much more optionality there is for students not that far from home. And, you know, as a parent of two grown-up kids who were educated both in France and in the UK, because I lived in France for years as well. You know, I've seen the change in just it's such a short distance across the channel. But the education in France and the education in Britain was completely different. If parents don't want to send their children miles away, they don't have to, but they can still get a different experience.

38:50And of course Europe, which is just exploding because of the amount of English taught degrees that are now available uh in the universities there. And some of them have been very quick to pick up the students who are no longer looking at the US because it's really interesting. And of course, as you can explain, the amount of programs that are available are significant too.

Yudhi Mapara39:12That's true. That's I think they're spot on there, Tess. And we're we're finding because we we liaise with Indian families uh across the world, not just in India. Uh what Tess says is is absolutely right. It's more about the regions nowadays. A lot less people are looking at to say just the US or just Australia like they were in the past. It's turned more into regions, so it's US, Canada, Europe is completely it is exploding at the moment. We discussed this a couple of weeks ago. And again, when we're talking to parents where their children are far younger than they used to be when these discussions started, it's not about a particular country in Europe.

39:46Parents are thinking about the opportunity for their child to live across Europe, whether that be in France or Portugal or even countries like Germany and the Netherlands. As a region, Europe is really popular at the moment. And Southeast Asia, you know, uh earlier it used to just be New Zealand and Australia. But now a lot of uh Indian families are seriously considering Southeast Asia, places like Singapore, Hong Kong, South Korea, like Tess mentioned, Japan as well. So, yes, the destinations where families want their children to study, they are growing. But at the end of the day, and where Henley is perfectly positioned is we are right at that intersection of a global education coupled with a residency.

40:26And then once that discussion happens simultaneously, we really can sit down and assess with the family where they would like their child to study and also have the best opportunities for the future.

Tess Wilkinson40:38Yeah. And if I can just jump in there, actually, you've just provided a perfect segue. Because one of the things I forgot to mention earlier, but is it's a really, and I know that you did you use this tool too. We've got a proprietary benchmarking tool called the Henley Opportunity Index, which sits on our website and everyone can access. But basically what it does is it measures how effectively premium education, when combined with strategic residence and citizen rights, translates into long-term or lifelong opportunity. So, what it does is it equips globally mobile families to identify the environments where access, networks, institutional quality aligned to maximize career progression, earning potential, economic mobility over a period of time.

41:26And it ranks the most effective residency and citizenship pathways that provide access to countries that not only offer exceptional education, but also strong that are strong economies. They have dynamic career markets and high levels of global mobility. So it's a really interesting tool and it has six data points, which are, if I remember correctly, career advantage, earning potential, education, clearly, top-tier employment prospects, economic mobility, and high livability, which is a safety element, healthcare, all of that sort of thing. So for instance, if we have a family that's prioritizing education, the UK is ranked top of the index. If they're prioritizing career advancement, then Switzerland is at the top. Whereas Singapore leads for top-tier employment prospects.

42:15However, overall, if you all the data points, interestingly enough, and maybe this is why it's such an attractive destination, Switzerland leads that index. It's very, very interesting, as Yudie was saying, when we're sitting down and looking at residency and citizenship alongside education, where the priorities lie, what the students, the parents are looking for, what the children are looking for. And then this really helps families consider these different data points and to decide which is the right match. Fantastic.